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APPENDIX
The Duality of Tensions at the Workplace for Female Leaders
JULIA HAIDINGER, 2707
A Project carried out on the Human Resources course, under the supervision of:
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Appendices
Appendix 1: Characteristics of Interviewees... 3
Appendix 2: Illustrative Data of the 2nd Order-Themes ... 4
Appendix 3: Interviews with Female Leaders ... 9
Interview n°1 (I1) ... 9
Interview n°2 (I2) ... 18
Interview n°3 (I3) ... 24
Interview n°4 (I4) ... 31
Interview n°5 (I5) ... 40
Interview n°6 (I6) ... 47
Interview n°7 (I7) ... 57
Interview n°8 (I8) ... 65
Interview n°9 (I9) ... 72
Interview n°10 (I10) ... 76
Interview n°11 (I11) ... 84
3 Appendix 1:Characteristics of Interviewees
This section contains a table resuming the characteristics of each interviewee. All interview participants are female and hold an MBA.
Interviewee Age Marital Status Children Nationality Industry
I1 29 single 0 Canadian HR/Consulting
I2 30 married 0 Canadian Energy Consulting
I3 30 married 0 Indian Marketing & PR
I4 50 divorced 2 British Health / Commercial Sector
I5 27 married 0 American Computer Engineering
I6 38 married 1 Chinese Government HR
I7 38 single 0 Canadian Government / HR
I8 30 married 0 Israeli Government / Army
I9 29 engaged 0
American-Polish
Advisory Supply Chain
I10 38 divorced 0 Australian Government
I11 30 relationship 0 Czech/Dutch University Education
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2nd –order
Themes
Representative 1st–order evidence
(a) Male associated qualities
- “I think there is a double standard, men being confident and telling it like it is and women
being – and I heard this word at the workplace a few times – women being bitchy, and so I
noticed when women say what they think they are perceived as winy or negative.”- I10 - “The thing is, men don’t have to think it through to this level because they are congratulated
for identifying a problem, whereas for example I have been accused of being overall
nut-picky”–I10
- “Because [women] are emotional and can’t really separate them from the work they are doing,
which is sometimes very interesting because if you have a man in the same position, people just think he is very talkative and does his work and gets stuff done and if he does not think about the others that is just how he is, but whereas a female does this in a same way it is sort of seen to be more negative.” - I2
- “I often define that there is a change in the body language of the males [if a women is too outspoken] either they would talk a talk about the female or they just don’t show much regard
for the female in meetings like no eye contact or ignoring what she is saying.” – I7
- “I think yes especially if you compare it to a men yes. I think there is less tolerance for women to do that.” – I1
- “She is in order delivery and every time she speaks, they just let her speak because they are
not listening or answering questions and when she is finished they talk like if she has not
spoken.”- I6
- “They will become a little more negatively […] you are never the one to talk or they cut you
off, they say it is a silly idea and do what the male colleagues suggested.” I11
- “But I think there is also this expectation that women need to act tough and they may not be as emotional or show weakness […] I guess I actually think that it [male attributes] is seen
favourable because it shows maybe equal self-confidence.” I7
- “But at the same time, you have to be a little aggressive to earn this respect and mimic what the guys are doing.” I5
- “[…] I have actually witnessed where women who are more straight forward tend to deal or interact with the guys better.” I5
- “[…]so one of the things she did is that she never smoked before, but when she came to the
C-level, she actually started to smoke cigar, so when the boys go to smoke, she would join
them and kind of got her intrusive.” I6
- “But if you just do it for the sake of being loud or whatever, it is more challenging for a woman to gain that credibility.” I1
- “You definitely have to advocate for yourself and I think if you are not pushing in the same way [as men] you are definitely going to get walked over.” I2
- “Sometimes guys are more easy with other guys they can make their jokes with.” I8 - “For me, I think confidence is the biggest thing. […] If a women has confidence and asks for
things it will take her further along in the career. […] I think women struggle more with confidence than men do and so to become a leader and to develop a career it is about the
confidence you present you give off, and which you have in yourself.” I1
- “[…] Men will assert themselves more and walk in and say ‘no I will not take this as a low
starting salary and I deserve much more and this is what my expectations are and if you are
not willing to match them I will go and find opportunity elsewhere.” I2
- “First of all, you need to be assertive, in today’s society for people to take you seriously, you
need to be very assertive and passionate whatever goals you want to achieve.” I3
- “I would not say aggressive, I would say driven and if I want something I ask for it. I am not afraid to say what I want. I don’t know if you can say that’s a male characteristic.” I9 - “I think that when I talk to my friends we definitely need to be tougher. We work harder and
the tasks required from us are more - to do everything, ‘to have it all’ like you said.” I8 - “I think you need to be quite thick-skined and resilient, because there are a lot of ups and
downs” I11
- “I think for a woman you have to be quite harsh, quite tough. I mean do men expect more
softer emotions from you, but I think it is not appreciate when you are climbing the ladder in
most organization” I4
- “You have to work double hard a bit, all your slides always have to be ready, because they will criticise you a lot in the beginning, so that’s important to work more than average, forget your emotions […]” I11
5 (b) Female
“Play-nice“ Qualities
- “Women might be like: oh no, I am not experienced enough but men will just go for it.” - “I think what I see is that women ask for promotions less, and feel that they have to earn it
more than guys do.” I5
- “It might take women longer to get promotions because they did not askfor it.” I9
- “[…] when women look at job postings, if you don’t meet nearly 100% of the criteria, they won’t apply - however if a men looks at it and he only has 60% of the qualifications he will
apply.” I1
- “I find a lot of females are too modest, as I was Benefits Operation Manager, I was hiring
people right, so males ask for 65 grant, Canadian dollar but females just ask for $48.000.” I6 - “What I see many female colleagues just accept it as it is, they don’t push forward.” I11 - “And I think [30% less salary] goes back to my one comment that women don’t ask for it.
[…] Women are much more likely to go into the workplace in Canada and have the perception ‘ok I start with a starting salary and lower my expectations but I will demonstrate my
qualification and I will work up’ […] they never ask for it.” I2
- “Some of this I think is that they are out of the workforce and therefore 10 years behind and they just don’t negotiate every year for increases and the types of work that women do also have an impact.” I12
- “[…]they don’t give financial reward so much weight in terms of professional success if you
ask them what their professional success is for them, they would generally say earning respect
and kind of receiving respect.” I3
- “And I did not realize that I haven’t been doing it enough, but then when I listen at the table
the men would always speak up and I would only speak up if I feel I have something valuable
to offer.” I1
- “For example there is an executive manager and she is strong in her views. And even women
call her aggressive. […] But in their thinking it might not be feminine enough.” I10 - “I think if women are working with other women and if they are trying to be too opinionated
it comes across really negatively. […] So I tried to kind of balance that so I can be seen as someone who is credible and is able to lead and manage the work but not to the people see
me as a ‘bitch’.” I2
- “But I think discrimination is there particularly in the respect aspect. It takes women more
time and effort to earn respect with certain individuals […] the people I work with in order to earn respect you have to kind of stay quiet or be very careful of what you say instead of
blowing up and getting emotional about the situation.” I 5
- “Just I think young Asian women, people expect them to be very gentle, very soft, and forget about ability and I mean the ability is there you know specialist but as for leading being
persuasive and assertive it is hard, so I totally experience that […]” I6
- “And I think that anytime you lack confidence, especially from a female perspective – anyone within the workplace will jump on that very quickly.” I2
- “If you are in a male dominate organization, men don’t usually like women to be outspoken.” I4
- “ […] I went to a [wine fair] last march, I was there and I am good enough there but in reality
I am not good enough, just for the presence, so I actually have two male sales people with me. That helps, because if you are just an Asian young women standing there, I think some people might not feel comfortable to talk with you.” I6
- “ […] a lot of males - at least back in India - they had this perception that PR, communications
is very female orientated, because you need to interact with the public and interact with the media, you need a softer personality. […] So over the time I realized maybe what I should do
is to put it in a softer or nicer way that does not affect them that badly.” I3
- “But the stereotypical perceptions are definitely still there with women being family
orientated and wanting to focus on kids and also the whole ‘can’t control emotions’
expectations.” I5
- “So you cannot get angry or pissed easily, because they then say ‘oh she is crying again or angry because is a woman.” I11
(c)Appearance-based
Discrimination
- “I actually have experienced physical sexual harassment from a gay men, when I was working
there. He would just come up and pat my bottom and say: Don’t worry darling, you are safe with me.” I10
- “I definitely felt treated badly from some of the man in my last work place. They were very
open about saying that I was attractive which is not okay for work. Oh my gosh, I had a boss - so in my last job I had 3 bosses who were inappropriate towards me. Three male bosses who
were all in different ways inappropriate towards me.” I1
6 - “And she got me in this room and started screaming at me and was accusing me of all sorts,
and I realized the weeks leading up to it and that was the Queen Bee - I had a lot more experience than her, was more attractive than her, slimmer than her and I was working in an
office with her husband.” I4
- “Men have boys clubs, support each other and bring each other in. Whereas women are more
competitive amongst each other, so the women will be more - not necessarily catty - but more
competitive and less about bringing other women in or up.” I1
- “It is that women have expectations held against them by other women, which is hard.”I10 - “Women can create a lot of problem for each other, I would be more afraid of a female leader
as a women then a male leader, because women don’t tend to help each other. ” I11
- “I was tasked with introducing her to stakeholders as she on boarded and she very quickly
took a dislike to me and I think she was threatened by me and it all went quite downhill and
in the end I thought 6 years is quite a long time and I should move on […].” I12 - “I guess this [girly appearance] could be a disadvantage in the hiring process.” I5
- “It is funny because I find, you know, in some organization I have worked if you are not or if you are almost too good looking people don’t take you seriously. […] So there is kind of an expectation that women are a certain level of attractiveness. I mean they do not say it explicit
but you can kind of tell within the group.” I1
- “[…] we worked very much with the commercial sector, which is very, very male dominated.
They would see an attractive woman as not very competent. […]I walked into the room the CEO of this organization stood up and shook my hand and he was smaller than me and I give a really good interview but all he kept doing during the interview he kept referring to my MBA and I just thought this man really has a problem with my MBA and also because I am
a woman.” I4
- “Because especially when you look at women and they are let’s say petite, small, and your
face is more gentle, then people assume you are easy to deal with and take your order so that’s
a challenge” I6
- “I don’t know but it is just when people first meet you, they have a specific perception of
what you are capable of versus if it is a guy the perception is different and that comes out when you first start working with someone.” I9
- “So we were told during the introduction week by a manager, ‘you are a girl, you are in the
marketing industry. For people clients and even journalists to take you seriously, you need to dress in a way they take you seriously, so very formal clothes, have an appearance. But at the same time they told me if you wear heels, a lot of people are intimitated by girls that walk in
heels” I3
- “You always wear make up, don’t look like you woke up from the bed as this is regarded as
very disrespectful you know as a women” I6
- “Where I work, there is another manager being moved sideways away from her job and I
think the new CEO from the minute he met her, he thought she was not a professional corporate women and I think part of this is the way she presents herself, she is just not
corporate enough for him. […..] But then she was wearing flowing skirts and she just did not look like he thought an executive manager should look.” I10
- “They are saying ‘Look, what an awful dress she is wearing’ or ‘She should go to the
hairdresser’ […]” I11 (d) The Beauty
Advantage
- “I wanted to say it depends on the situation, but in some cases you might get something you need or people find you attractive and more likeable in a way.” I1
- “And I have seen women who do use their appearance to their own advantage to impress or distract males. […] But sometimes I have seen where maybe women dressed a little bit more provocatively and entice males to look at them more favourably” I7
- “I think it is easier to approach people and start a conversation from there you have to say something sharp otherwise it will be a short conversation” I9
- “Still people are talking to those people who are more attractive” I12
- “… I think it would be naive to say that it does not play any role in life and job and everything. But it is not something that is very important in the army.” I8
- “But I have heard cases where they do hiring that they want to hire females who are pretty, maybe because they are going out to clients.” I7
- “I had a boss in the beginning [of my career] who said she got in a lot of trouble, well not a lot of trouble, but people said she only hires the attractive girls.”
- “[...] especially in recruiting, people seem to be more attractive if you are in a role where you
are trying to recruit people.” I1
- “I think that if people are confident in their abilities and if this translates into how they come across from an appearance stand point then it does play into [a successful career].” I2 (e) The
Motherhood Penalty
- “Because I think women can’t have it all. I think women have it all but not at the same time” - “I think the hardest choices will be at some point, choosing either between a job vs being at
7 - “I am sad to say that but I believe that [choosing between a great career and motherhood] is
still the problem.”I11
- “But there is still this stereotypical view that a woman has to sacrifice part of her career whether she puts it on hold or delays having children, because she can’t do both - she can’t
be a mother and a career women and can’t go to these senior roles. I have connections in the
industry and there are not many female in these senior positions and they still have that struggles and it is difficult to juggle this and to get to these senior roles when you have a
family as well.” I4
- “My other friend is 39 and she has 2 children and see she is two levels below that [partner
level] because she had two children. And she is just as capable as the other girl, but she said she will not get a promotion for the next 5 years” I10
- “Sometimes women are expected to make sacrifices at work for home, so then the boss might make a decision based on that for example projects and promotions.” I5
- “But when they had kids, [promotions] is something, they would not have chosen because of
the work-life balance.” I5
- “I do have two friends though one of them recently is on maternity leave and she got looked over a promotion when she was pregnant because of that.”
- “Another friend always had a conversation outlining the next roles, and she was not sure
whether she would get that opportunity. Now she is on maternity leave and was not sure about
the timing”. I2
- “But if you are working for someone and two people are comparing a woman who leaves at 5 o’clock to go home to her family and a man who stays until seven or eight like that man is
gonna be looked upon more favourably for a promotion because he has done more work.” I1 - “And when they have been on maternity leave their position was eliminated during that time
or they made it very difficult for the person who was on maternity leave to return back to the
workplace.” I7
- “I have been working part time for 10 years.” I12
- “There is always an assumption that [working mums] can’t always be relied on to be there
every day because something will happen to them” I10
- “Today my boss was talking about someone to fill in while he goes away and he said we can’t have a person who is a working mum because we can’t rely on her” I10
- “So I mean that is kind of an aspect where he thinks that females give family more value and they would not travel and won’t be able to take on this responsibility.” I3
- “I think if you have kids, you have to slow down your progression.” I5
- “I am only speaking for myself but what I start to feel if it is possible to have the balance that I want with a family, while still progressing within the organization. […] I think a lot of women start to kind of decide that they want other things and don’t necessarily continue to
keep going up the ladder[…] You kind of see these people [women with children] naturally pull out of the career you know. Because if you are not working as many hours as someone
who is [staying overtime].” I1
- “They may have obligations to pick up their kids from day-care, they need some flexible hours for their kids if they are ill.” I7
- “So they definitely can have a family and career and they can definitely do that but you know
they still have more problems like in Israel it is more common that women get off work more early to pick up the children from kindergarden or whatever.” I8
- “[…] the pressure you want to be with your family especially as a mum I am very close to my daughter, and you know you sort of feel, I am away they don’t know what to eat, so that
kind of thing, so you definitely have more burden and pressure from family.” I6
- “It is not impossible but if you think you were to have both you would need a spouse who is more flexible and able to do some of the things, because the hours here are very long.” I1 - “But even you got your partner half of everything which I really do. You end up doing a little
bit more, just because you notice things that need to be done quicker than a guy does.” I9 - “But it is harder because the top management wants to schedule a meeting at 8 pm theydon’t
care if you have children at home or not.” I8
- “[…] my boss at the time, she just called in many times, the kids were sick she just worked
from home and you know we had clients call and [there was] a baby crying in the
background.” I6 (f) Career
Women
- “So for example say women want to achieve a high ranking career, they pretty much have not
have children yet. […] If you have not reached it by then, chances would be you won’t and I
don’t think men have to deal with it.”I10
- “So I think having two very motivated career people makes it harder to have kids.I think I
8 - “The organization I am in at the moment there are quite a few women in senior roles and these
women don’t have children. It was clearly you were either going to be a mum in a lower role
or you will be a career women and you are not having children.” I4 - “Actually a lot of women in my position, don’t have kids.” I9
- “Unfortunately, there is something like people asking: oh you are 38, you don’t have
children? Really? –like that’s a surprise to people.”I10
- “It is almost a no-win situation, someone is going to criticize you.” I5
- “And I don’t have children and my mum keeps bothering me about that all the time. So there is some pressure but more from society because I am 30 and I don’t have children and stuff like that.” I8
- “He said, ‘You being a girl I don’t think you will be able to do it. I think you should stay
home, focusing on family and try to enjoy yourself’.” I3
- “And also sometimes in Asia you know when I am travelling, there is a lot of rich guys you start to feel like they think ‘as a women why do you do this, shouldn’t you be home’, because
they probably have a wife who is home with the kids all the time right.” I6
- “But I think when I got married, everybody or my managers were thinking is she gonna get pregnant or not.” I8
- “When I went for the job I just got, when I went for the interview, not just once, but I was
asked twice by the interviewer ‘do you have any kids’ - I said ‘no I don’t’, ‘do you have any
plan in the future’, ‘no in the foreseeable future, five years, I don’t have any intention’. “ I3 - “When I was in national government and I managed a team, they were a lot of women in
senior positions. There was pressure from my boss to find out if they are thinking about having
children” I4
- “But some days they do put more pressure and expectation on people when they are single.
[….] I don’t know if they penalize someone like me who does not have a family, but there
are expectations to work longer hours.” I7 (g) Gender-Pay
Gap
- “But I definitely think if you ask me more generally it is the norm that men earn more within Canada.” I1
- “But in earlier times it was because women were not progressive enough and in leadership kind of roles that they were earning on an average less than the male colleagues.” I3 - “I know that men would get paid more because men were chosen for more senior positions.
It was expected that a men would fill those positions, women would not.” I4
- “It might take them longer to get a promotion because they did not ask for it. Also I read that women can’t negotiate their starting salary that strongly.” I5
- “So males ask for 65 grant, Canadian dollar but females just ask for 48.000. I mean not many
employers would say oh we pump up for you, ultimately if we are hiring people this pay in a range for companies like eon at least it will not affect the hiring decision. This is because they are not as confident, or desperate for a job or modest.” I6
- “And a lot of times I think it is attributed to the way they negotiate and maybe they don’t ask for a higher salary.” I7
- “And I think it goes back to my one comment that women do not ask for it. Women are much
more likely to go into the workplace in Canada and have the perception ok I start with a starting salary and lower my expectation but I will demonstrate my qualification and I will
work up […].” I2
- “I don’t know how much. I don’t really know because I am in the Army. Because in the Army
it is not something that happens because in the army they have a system that combines your
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Appendix 3: Interviews with Female Leaders
Interview n°1 (I1)
Interviewer: I would like to start right away with some general questions. So it would be great if you could talk a little bit about yourself, your career journey and also touch up on the industry
you are working in.
Interviewee: In terms of me, my career has always been in recruiting and I started my career after I graduated from university with a marketing degree and I started recruiting students from
high school to study at university. So I did that for about 5 years and during that time progressed
from you know kind of an entry level recruiter up to the senior level coordinator and to the
manager of this team. So that was sort of the first five years of my career and I also did my
MBA during the last few years of while I was working. So I was working and doing my MBA
at the same time. And then when I completed that program I decided that I was ready for another
adventure and that was when I decided to take this job that I have now which is with Y (a big
consultancy). So what I do is managing the recruiting of campus hires within the Toronto area.
What this means basically is that we have a team of recruiters and a coordinator who go out to
schools and attract top talent to come work for this consultancy. It is a bit different to my
previous role but it is very strategic and interesting and fast pace in the recruiting world. Now
I do basically university student recruiting and I have been in this position for 1,5 years now.
Interviewer:That’s sounds great. So I have heard that consultancies are rather male dominated. And I know you are working in HR, but would you still consider this specific industry to be
10 Interviewee: That’s a good question, I think it is interesting. I would say within the field of
accounting or professional services what we see the most is that it is pretty equal at the entry
level but then at any higher levels, the disparity or inequality really starts to show especially at
a kind of senior manager grade is when women usually step back in their career and the men
go up to like director or partner in the firm. So that’s you know more on the side of the business
and consultants and accountants. In HR, I would say it is more females than in other teams, so
I would say we are unique in that sense. So recruiting is a field within HR so it attracts more
women. I do work more with women within my group but on the business side I definitely see
more men at more senior levels.
Interviewer: Okay, and would you actually say that it is more difficult for you to reach your professional goals due to your gender?
Interviewee: I think for me the challenge right now is more about deciding you know what are my priorities within the next few years. I have always been really career focused and education
oriented but I think as I get a little bit older, I mean I am 29 years old now, as I kind of look
forward to my future I kind of think about what are my new goals as I progress forward versus
what I thought they were a few years ago. I am only speaking for myself but what I start to feel
is like you know is it possible to have the balance that I want with a family and things like that
while still progressing within the organization. What I feel here at Y, because the organisation
is very open about supporting women at the workplace and there is many women in leadership
groups and many coaching and mentorship programs exist in order to get women further ahead
in their career if that’s what they want. I think a lot of women start to kind of decide that they
11 Interviewer: Because you talked about combining family and work. So would you say that in this industry you can successfully combine both - motherhood and career or is it still something
you have to choose you know one way or the other?
Interviewee: Personally, I think it is something you have to choose to a degree. It is not impossible but if you think you were to have both you would need a spouse who is more flexible
and able to do some of the things, because the hours here are very long. So if you are away from
home this is kind of a question of who stays with the kids. I mean it might be possible, I have
seen it happen it is just that you also need support and it is probably not the easiest thing in the
world.
Interviewer: You just mentioned that you have very long hours, do you actually think that the consulting industry penalizes those who do not have kids? Meaning for example that these
women have to work longer hours because maybe some mums have to leave earlier and cannot
work so much over time?
Interviewee: I don’t necessarily see it as a penalty but you kind of see these people [women
with children] naturally pull out of the career you know. Because if you are not working as
many hours as someone who is [staying overtime]. But I don’t see it as a penalty, it is just like
those people don’t necessary step up the ladder as quickly.
Interviewer: Okay, I know from an HR point of view, you are not allowed to discriminate against women with children/or pregnant women. However, do you have witnessed any kind
12 Interviewee: Mhm, yes this is probably the case. But I think it is again connected to the hours, so the people who are working more can deliver more and if [you have children] and choose to
work less, no one is going to fire you. But you are not necessarily producing the same amount
of work as someone who is doing more hours.
Interviewer: Okay, I would like to take a step back and ask you some more general questions, because we quickly went into depth talking about career and motherhood. So have you ever
experienced any kind of discrimination due to stereotypical perceptions like gender roles?
Interviewee: Not in my current job [consulting industry]. But in my previous job I definitely experienced discrimination. In my previous job I worked a lot with older individuals and I think
it was a mixed discrimination due to my young age, because I was a young manager and
especially some of the women who have been there for a long time did not take me all that
seriously, and I definitely felt treated badly from some of the man in my last work place. They
were very open about saying that I was attractive which is not okay for work. However, they
did not really see that that was a problem.
Interviewer: Because you just talked about attractiveness, I would like to go a little bit deeper
here if you don’t mind. So I would like to ask you to which extent did your individual
appearance or beauty affect your own success?
Interviewee:That’s a good question. It is funny because I find, you know, in some organization I have worked, if you are not or if you are almost too good looking, people don’t take you
seriously. But especially in recruiting, people seem to be more attractive if you are in a role
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certain level of attractiveness. I mean they do not say it explicit but you can kind of tell within
the group.
Interviewer: So on one hand it is an advantage however it can also easily turn into a disadvantage.
Interviewee: Yeah I wanted to say it depends on the situation, but in some cases you might get something you need or people find you attractive and more likeable in a way. But in other cases
they then do not take you seriously. It depends on the industry and situation.
Interviewer:I don’t know whether you have ever heard of the “Queen Bee Syndrome”, which is supposedly the punishment by other women due to your attractive looks. So have you ever
experienced something like this?
Interviewee: Yes, a little bit actually. I think mostly for me it is about my relationship with people so if I find - not that I find that I am particularly attractive - but like I think everyone has
insecurities and the interesting thing with women in the workplace is that the whole idea with
men is that men have boys clubs, support each other and bring each other in. Whereas women
are more competitive amongst each other, so the women will be more - not necessarily catty -
but more competitive and less about bringing other women in or up. Whereas men do it more
naturally.
14 Interviewee: Oh yes. Oh my gosh, I had a boss - so in my last job I had 3 bosses who were inappropriate towards me. Three male bosses who were all in different ways inappropriate
towards me. Like full on I was like this is not ok for work.
Interviewer: To what extent if I may ask?
Interviewee: Of course. One like openly basically tried to make a move on me. The other would send me emails where sometimes he would make suggestions that he thought that I was
attractive and everybody in the office made fun and was like “oh he loves you”, because he
would always like hang around me and he was a very senior person. And then there was a third
who would just like - he was a very different personality - he would just like always come
around and tell me things like that he - like actually I am not kidding you, he told me at the end
of my employment that he loved me.
Interviewer: Okay wow.
Interviewee: Yeah, but there is nothing like that here at my new job. Thankfully.
Interviewer: Alright, thank you. I also wanted to ask you whether you agree with the statement that women still cannot have it all. If so, would you mind sharing your thoughts on this.
Interviewee: Yes, I agree. I mean I think we definitely made progress but for I would say the family dynamic. You only have so many hours in a day and I think that in a lot of organizations
to be really successful you have to put more time into your work and this time has to come from
somewhere. If you are making choices about your family that that can sometimes come with a
15
own hours. But if you are working for someone and two people are comparing a woman who
leaves at 5 o’clock to go home to her family and a man who stays until seven or eight like that
man is going to be looked upon more favourably for a promotion because he has done more
work. So I guess it is harder to compare value per hour versus total hours. I think we have done
better, but it is not perfect.
Interviewer: That’s true. I actually also wanted to ask you taking your own experience into
account, what kind of character traits are required for women in order to make it to the top?
Interviewee: For me, I think confidence is the biggest thing. I think with women there is interesting research and articles about you know, women do they need to take on male attributes
or do they need to bring their feminine values in order. There is different arguments on either
side but I think at the end of the day it is about confidence. I think women struggle more with
confidence than men do and so to become a leader and to develop a career it is about the
confidence you present you give off, and which you have in yourself. I saw a statistic once and
It really resignated with me, it is about when women look at job postings, if you don’t meet
nearly 100% of the criteria, they won’t apply - however if a man looks at it and he only has
60% of the qualifications he will apply. So it is around building confidence, if a women has
confidence and asks for things it will take her further along in the career.
Interviewer: You were touching up on male attributes, how are women perceived if they display male characteristics in your industry?
Interviewee: I think within the consulting industry it is more common because of the hard-working culture. So more women are in powerful positions. I think in my previous organization
16
day - maybe this is me being optimistic - I think to some degree it is about are you legitimate
in what you are saying and doing. So if you are coming across assertively and confidently and
if you can back it up, then you are in a better position. But if you just do it for the sake of being
loud or whatever, it is more challenging for a women to gain that credibility.
Interviewer: So would you actually agree that if a woman speaks her mind, she might be deemed bossy?
Interviewee: I think yes especially if you compare it to a men yes. I think there is less tolerance
for women to do that. But I also think that naturally women don’t do it as much on their own.
Like my coach here - I have a coach here- he always encourages me to speak up and voice my
opinion. And I did not realize that I haven’t been doing it enough, but then when I listen at the
table the men would always speak up and I would only speak up if I feel I have something
valuable to offer.
Interviewer:Ok, that’s great that you have access to a coach.
Interviewee:Yes, he is always like “[name] speak up”. I have learnt a lot.
Interviewer: Actually we already have reached the last question. So research showed that women earn on average 30% less than men. Would you agree that this applies for the industries
you have worked in and to Canada in general?
Interviewee: I am not totally positive what the other salaries are. I think within my [HR ] group
it is pretty transparent on how they place people so I don’t personally feel that there is a male
17
that but again I was always in HR which is always primarily female dominated. But I definitely
think if you ask me more generally it is the norm that men earn more within Canada.
Interviewer: Would you like to make any other comments?
Interviewee: No, I think we have covered everything.
18 Interview n°2 (I2)
Interviewer: Could you please present yourself and talk a little bit about your career journey and the industry you are working in?
Interviewee: The industry I have been working in has been in the Energy Industry. I have been working mainly with engineers. I started my career, doing program development which helps
to design utility programs to fund, efficiency projects and to increase awareness of how
different industries, whether they are manufacturing industries or even commercial building,
how they can improve their energy use and actually decrease their energy use through
technologies. So I started my career on the programme side and after completing my MBA, I
actually made a switch over to the consulting industry working for an engineering firm that
actually does the design and implementation of these projects. So I have always been in an
industry where I have not necessarily technically knowable anything we are doing in an actual
project sense but from the market side and the administration and operation of the business, so
I have always focused there. Actually being a female in a very male driven environment around
engineering and the energy industry definitely has its own challenges in terms of being able to
move up within the organization and I guess sort of being taken seriously.
Interviewer: So you were mentioning that it is sometimes difficult to work in this male dominated environment. I would like to ask you whether you have ever experienced any
discrimination due to stereotypes?
Interviewee: Actually no, I know it is kind of surprising. And I think that it is because I realized early on where my value is and I have sort of taken confidence in that. I really tried to position
19
managed or whatever positions I have been in. And I think this has been really helpful to assert
myself and made me more credible within my roles and positions within my team. And I think
that anytime you lack confidence, especially from a female perspective - anyone within the
workplace will jump on that very quickly. And use that as not necessarily a weakness but as
something against especially women in any kind of a role. And I think one thing I have seen is
that when you try to be too, I guess, observive and not necessarily aware of your weaknesses
and your areas where you might not be as strong as somebody else in your team that that is seen
very, very negatively. Especially from a female standpoint in the workplace. So I tried to kind
of balance that so I can be seen as someone who is credible and is able to sort of lead and
manage the work but not to the point where people see me as a “bitch” - pardon the word.
Interviewer: Do you have this kind of problem rather with your male or female colleagues?
Interviewee: I think it is both. And I think it is a different problem. Men are able to take a little bit of an assertive, female is actually that they back it up with their work experience and good
ideas. I think when women are working with other women and if they are trying to be too
opinionated it comes across really negatively. I have not actually worked with too many women
because of the industry I am in. It is a lot of men that I work with. But the women I do come
across can be seen sort of overbearing by the men we work with. Because they are emotional
and can’t really separate them from the work they are doing, which is sometimes very
interesting because if you have a man in the same position, people just think he is very talkative
and does his work and gets stuff done and if he does not think about the others that is just how
he is, but whereas a female does this in a same way it is sort of seen to be more negative.
20 Interviewee: Yes, you definitely have to advocate for yourself and I think if you are not pushing in the same way [as men] you are definitely going to get walked over.
Interviewer: Ok, so you actually already answered one of my main questions. However, I also would like to ask you if you actually agree with the statement that “Women still can’t have it
all”?
Interviewee: I actually would disagree. I think they can have it all because as long as they are positioning themselves well and demonstrate why they deserve it. That might just be my
personality have worked and demonstrate what I have done well. And that is something that
females tend to do is that will just what they are given rather than say this is what I have done
and this is what I want more. I think if they want to have it all [at the workplace] they have to
be more assertive.
Interviewer: Ok alright, and with regards to having a family and combining career and motherhood?
Interviewee: Oh ok, I think that’s definitely a tough question. I don’t know because I don’t
have any experience but I think it depends on what you really measure to be success. There are
women I deal with in my organization who have a family and they are high profile within the
company and they will have whatever they need to, so I would say generally yes. You just have
to ask for it and say what you want.
21 Interviewee:That’s a great question. No I don’t think so. I think that you sort of work the hours
that you have to get done regardless if you have a family or not. You can justify your life outside
of work.
Interviewer: Let’s assume a woman has children and works in your company? Are they
differently treated when it comes to promotions?
Interviewee:Another great question. I don’t know the women who are currently on maternity leave are in support roles and I have not experienced that I have been walked over with any
promotions, but I also don’t have children. I do have two friends though one of the recently is
on maternity leave and she said she got looked over a promotion when she was pregnant because
of that. The other one always had a conversation like this is the next role this is where we are
going - and she was not sure whether she will get that opportunity. Because she is now on
maternity leave and was not sure about the timing.
Interviewer: Ok, next I would like to ask you to what extent appearance or beauty influenced female careers in your industry?
Interviewee: Interesting. I had a boss in the beginning who said she got in a lot of trouble because, well not a lot of trouble, but people said she only hires the attractive girls. And she
answered ‘no I hire people who are confident and if it happens that they are confident because
they are more attractive so be it’, I think that if people are confident in their abilities and if this
translates into how they come across from an appearance stand of point than it does play into
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come across as more attractive if they are more confident and more outgoing. And from my
perception point this goes sometimes hand in hand [with beauty].
Interviewer: Going more into depth with the beauty issue. Did you actually ever have the problem with the Queen Bee syndrome, which basically means that you are disliked by other
women because of your looks?
Interviewee: Yes, in my previous position there was a women who thought I got more opportunities than she did. I was not more qualified but I asked for them, so she did certainly
not like me as a person simply because I was more confident in what I was asking for and going
after what I wanted. And she thought she deserved it more than I did, but I was getting those
promotions and special treatments and I thought she was hard to deal with and that it would not
matter anyways but that was my experience with this.
Interviewer: Ok thank you, so finally the last question: According to research women do earn on average 30% less than male colleagues, do you have the same perception?
Interviewee: Yes definitely. When I was doing my MBA, we were doing a women in leadership session where the person said that is still 30% less from a starting salary. And I think
it goes back to my one comment that women do not ask for it. Women are much more likely to
go into the workplace in Canada and have the perception ok I start with a starting salary and
lower my expectation but I will demonstrate my qualification and I will work up, because that
is sort of the perception but I think they never ask for larger promotions. They want be helpful
and do a good job and they take what they are given whereas men will assert themselves more
23
and this is where my expectations are and if you are not willing to match them I will go and
find opportunity elsewhere.’ So it is definitely something that happens in Canada as well.
Interviewer: Thank you. So would you like to share any additional comments?
Interviewee: No, I wish that women would be a little bit more confident to do things. But I think that women act more around feelings and men look more into logic and this is business
and how things go. I wish there was more balance in seeing both sides but hopefully we will
24 Interview n°3 (I3)
Interviewer: Thank you for taking the time for doing this interview, I know you are very busy. First I would ask you to introduce yourself (age, profession, career journey)?
Interviewee: Ok sure, I am basically 30 right now and I am working on my own business now and previously I have been in the PR and marketing industry before I started my MBA and I
was working there for 3,5 years and then I moved to the UK [from India] and decided that I
really needed to enhance my knowledge and that’s when I decided to do an MBA. And after
the MBA being from another country and holding a different nationality here in the UK was a
bit of a challenge. At the same time I decided to keep continuing doing that and the knowledge
of the MBA helped me to set up my own business so why not use that and that was when I
started working towards that and designing a business plan, meeting with suppliers, got the
products that I wanted to and setting up the website and at the same time I got a job opportunity
which starts in September – in a completely different industry I am going into it is an
engineering company, completely technical. So looking forward to managing both the things at
the same time.
Interviewer: Very challenging and exciting. Congratulations.
Interviewee: Yes, thank you.
Interviewer:I don’t know but in which industry have you been working in the past?
25 Interviewer: Was it a male dominated industry?
Interviewee: You know it is not male dominated, it is a very female dominated industry because a lot of males - at least back in India - they had this perception that PR, communications
is very female orientated, because you need to interact with the public and interact with the
media, you need a softer personality. Somebody who is a little bit soft spoken. So it is a very
female industry. But at the same time, now the ratio is becoming more equal.
Interviewer: Ok, how interesting. I also wanted to ask you if you have ever faced any kind of discrimination at the workplace?
Interviewee: I would say in terms of workplace, not really. But when I was starting my new business, I had to meet with suppliers and everybody. So first I met alone with one of the
suppliers, I really wanted to buy things and get things from him because the stuff was really
good. But first time, because I went alone, he refused to talk to me. He told me ‘you know I
don’t think you can do it. You being a girl I don’t think you will be able to do it. I think you
should stay home, focusing on family and try to enjoy yourself.’ So the next thing what I did, I
thought ok maybe just because I am a girl, a young girl coming from no kind of experience of
the industry he is working in. So I said ok, why not take my dad and my husband along. So
when I took them along, he was happily talking and in the end - this is a statement I am quoting
- he said ‘just because you two men came along with her I am willing to give her all the stuff.
Otherwise I would not because I think a girl in this industry can’t last.’
Interviewer: Really? Was it in the UK now or in India?
26 Interviewer:But you handled it well, so that’s good. Alright, I also wanted to ask you about
the statement that women cannot have it all.
Interviewee:But I think the statement is completely wrong, in today’s time a woman wants to have a profession, she wants to achieve, has a set of girls and what she wants to achieve
professionally and personally, she can do it. Because it is not so difficult managing and
enhancing your skills and at the same time managing family and motherhood or anything. So it
is just the right balance. And I think women have the natural ability to manage work and their
life better. I think they can do it all. I think all you need is the passion and the willpower to do
it. And if you have it, you can achieve anything. And I think they can do it better than men can
do it.
Interviewer: That’s interesting and because you said that talking about the supplier that he basically said that you are supposed to be home with children, did you have any other reactions
like this because you are a career woman?
Interviewee: Yes there are some things, I will you give you an example. When I went for the job I just got, when I went for the interview, not just once, but I was asked twice by the
interviewer ‘do you have any kids’ - I said ‘no I don’t’, ‘do you have any plan in the future’,
‘no in the foreseeable future, five years, I don’t have any intention’. He then asked me if I tell
you to travel there and there for a project, will you be able to do it’, I said if you give me the
visas, if I have all the documentation required, I am able to do it. So I mean that is kind of an
aspect where he thinks that females give family more value and they would not travel and won’t
27 Interviewer: Ok, you were also mentioning that the supplier you were talking to, that he was expecting you to be soft?
Interviewee: Yes, because he thought you know I will be this soft kind of girl and that the first
time he told me ‘no’ that I would not come back. Just because he told me off. But then I am not
that kind of a person if I don’t like something, I am talking about it. But he said because I got
my father and husband along to talk to him. I mean there is a perception especially among
males in India that women are supposed to be quieter, softer - so if you see an elderly and they
say something you respect that and don’t act against it.
Interviewer: Because you said you say if you don’t like something. So is there any negative
feedback, if we say you are not displaying those “play nice” attributes, but are rather outspoken?
Interviewee: I never had a negative feedback but sometimes, not everybody can take criticism, so if I bluntly say something, people think I am trying to criticize them during projects I have
worked on in my past. So over the time realized maybe what I should do is to put it in a softer
or nicer way that does not affect them that badly. So I think people think that I am too much in
their face, I should be a little bit more subtle when I choose my words.
Interviewer: So going one step back maybe, I wanted to ask you in general what kind of character traits in your experience are required in order to make it to the top as a woman?
Interviewee: As a woman you mean in corporate industry or?
28 Interviewee: First of all, you need to be assertive, in today’s society for people to take you seriously. You need to be very assertive and passionate whatever goals you want to achieve. At
the same time it is the passion. Lots of women, if they are passionate about it, they do not
display or show it so much. And if they show it sometimes you know they do it in a different
way than what the passion of a man would be like, and I think another thing is that they don’t
give financial reward so much weight in terms of professional success if you ask them what
their professional success is for them, they would generally say earning respect and kind of
receiving respect and making a different kind of organization. But at the same time, if it is a
financial achievement and if women are more financially, they want to be more assertive, I
think that’s the characteristics executive leaders need, in general women their personal life will
take them a lot of different places.
Interviewer: Ok, so one more question. It might be a little bit different or interesting question, but to what extent does beauty matter from your experience at the workplace?
Interviewee: That’s a very good question, and I can give you a very good example. Now I think for me personally I would not say beauty but I would say your personal appearance, the way
you conduct yourself, the way you dress, that has a lot of impact on the person you are
interacting with and for people to take you seriously. I remember when I was back in India and
I just started working: so we were told during the introduction week by a manager, ‘you are a
girl, you are in the marketing industry. For people clients and even journalists to take you
seriously, you need to dress in a way they take you seriously, so very formal clothes, have an
appearance. But at the same time they told me if you wear heels, a lot of people are intimidated
29
been drilled into my mind, if you are dressed properly and conduct yourself well, it has an
impact.
Interviewer: So you said wearing heels creates a certain picture of a woman, I wanted to ask whether you have any experience with objectification of women?
Interviewee: I would say yes there have been instances of I would not say it is exactly objectification, but trying to portray women as an object, but then yes it has been. Because
while in India we were asked to not wear heels especially when you were meeting media or
having a press conference because they say people are intimidated if a women in heels walks
into the room. So they always said people won’t take you seriously. I mean in terms of really
objectifying women, I would say no I have not experienced it but in terms of to wear high heels
and so on yes.
Interviewer: Finally, I wanted to ask you because research showed that women earn about 30% less than men on average. What are your thoughts on that?
Interviewee: I think one of the reasons, I mean now it is getting more and more that companies have certain budgetary characteristics. But in earlier times it was because women were not
progressive enough and in leadership kind of roles that they were earning on an average less
than the male colleagues. So that is one of the reasons. And right now I think the way women
are progressing, and the way they want to achieve their professional goals, the gap is slowly
narrowing down and in a few years time, the average difference will be absolutely minimal.
31 Interview n°4 (I4)
Interviewer: Alright, I would just ask you right away to maybe briefly introduce yourself: your age, profession and marital status.
Interviewee: Alright ok, well I am 50 now. Turned 50 in May - I wish that I don’t feel it, don’t look it. I am divorced, two grown up children and currently a manager in the health and social
care center in England. Did you get that?
Interviewer: Yes, also I am taping it - so I will transcribe it later.
Interviewee: Yeah, so I work with hospitals, and what we call local authorities and councils - so who provide care for young and older people. So anything to do with health, and I mean
anything on social care - typically relevant with elder people in the UK in the moment. And I
work in big data.
Interviewer: Interesting.
Interviewee: Yeah, so I work with technology and IT systems and how to use data in order to improve patient care. And help the performance of say hospitals, so yes I am in the world of
big data.
32 Interviewee: No, not in the organisation I work for currently, it is not male dominated, there are quite a few women in senior roles. But for me this is not a role I want to do - it is not a long
time role I want to do in the long term. I am enjoying it because it is a new industry I never
thought I would go into and it helped with this to learn about big data and understand about
management information and information systems and how it helps you in management and in
the business world and organisations - it actually helped a lot with my MBA to actually put it
into practice - it sort of removed these myths around technology and big data. I realized that it
is not that complicated and it has put things in context where my MBA is concerned.
Interviewer: And what are the other industries you have worked in the past?
Interviewee: In national government, in the finance industry. I don’t want to go back into national government and pure finance. I want to use everything I learnt in my MBA. I want to
go into an organisation where I can improve and grow it. That’s my ambition
Interviewer: That’s a good approach actually. So proceeding to maybe some more general
questions regarding tensions and challenges at the workplace before we go deeper. So I just I
wanted to ask you whether you have experienced any kind of discrimination steaming from
gender stereotypes?
Interviewee: Yes, I have. When I was in national government, that was very male dominated and I would say that in the UK, national government is very male dominated and for me as a
women I was the only female manager above senior level and had to be over 10/15 years, so
there was no encouragement for women to be in that position. Actually you felt that you had a
lot to prove to your male counterparts to get there and you did not have the help. It was a lot of
33
were capable of doing that. And then finding somebody who would typically be a male mentor
which would help prepare you for this role. It is still the case, I have connections in the industry
and there are not many female in these senior positions and they still have that struggles and it
is difficult to juggle this and to get to these senior roles when you have a family as well.
Interviewer: Actually that leads me to one of my next questions. So what are your thoughts on the statement that women cannot have it all?
Interviewee: I would say it is still true in a lot of ways. I think it easier than when I had my children. Because the laws have changed for women wanting to go back to work after having
children. They are more favourable for them. There is greater opportunity to access childcare -
that has changed. But there is still this stereotypical view that a woman has to sacrifice part of
her career whether she puts it on hold or delays having children, because she can’t do both -
she can’t be a mother and a career women and can’t go to these senior roles.
Interviewer: Because you said there is somewhat pressure from society to not stay in their careers or be a mum - did you ever experience anything with your co-workers that society puts
pressure on those who decided in favour of their careers and against having children?
Interviewee: I have encountered it in different ways. The organization I am in at the moment
there are quite a few women in senior roles and these women don’t have children. I have
different pressures and I will explain it in a minute, but these women I work with are all about
40 and there are a few who don’t have children and this one lady, she is actually heads of my
team and she is coming back from maternity leave and she just got her first child, she is around
40 - so you can see that a lot of females in senior positions had to make sacrifices to get there.
34
positions. There was pressure from my boss to find out if they are thinking about having
children.
Interviewer:Isn’t this illegal?
Interviewee: Actually it is, but he came to me and asked ‘have they discussed with you, are they likely to have children - when I am planning things ahead in the business are they going
to be around or are they going to have children.’
Interviewer:That’s interesting. So women who have children or are planning to have children are kind of penalized from the industry? I also wanted to ask what kind of challenges you
experienced at the workplace, because you are a mum.
Interviewee: Yeah, for me it meant that I delayed going into management, a senior position because I had children. I had children in my mid-to late 20s. So I did not get into management
until I was about 40. That again proves that I could not do both and in that time in the
organization I was working for there was not provision for new managers to have training local
to home, so you would have to arrange your own child care. They would not be flexible to suit
women closer to home. They have changed because more women progress in senior positions
and unions were calling for that. But in that moment in time I was delayed in going in a
management role because the organization was not set up that way and was not encouraging
women to go that way. It was clearly you were either going to be a mum in a lower role or you
will be a career women and you are not having children.
35 Interviewee:That’s a strange one because, I probably stay longer anyway.
I changed the focus in my career because I am not a mum of young children, my sons are
independent. So my professional outlook is different, so I will put in extra hours and take on
more responsibility because I can and if anything I more support the mum in the workplace, I
understand what it is like for them. So I step in and support them - the young women in the
workplace as well, I kind of encourage them - so they can have it all. I have done it in generally
the world has changed since I had my children and I know if you push for it you can get there.
In my organization, it is definitely split 50 / 50 with women and men - it is a very fortunate
organization for me to work there.
Interviewer: Ok talking about proceeding in your career - what do you think what kind of attributes or character traits are beneficial in order to step up the ladder?
Interviewee: I think for a woman you have to be quite harsh, quite tough. I mean men do expect softer emotions from you, but I think it is not appreciate when you are climbing the ladder in
most organization. I think in organizations where E.I. is valued, is an organization who is going
to trying to get up the ladder for a women I would say showing a lot of emotions is not the right
thing to do. Emotions don’t come into every day work.
Interviewer: So if you may, it is good to have some “male” character traits. Actually I also wanted to ask you - if you are very outspoken and straight forward, do you have any experience
with having negative feedback with your colleagues because you speak your mind a lot?
36
to be outspoken. And the person I got criticism of was my boss. I was encouraged by others to
be outspoken, they knew I would make valid points - but my boss did not like me to be
outspoken. And one of the reasons why I left this job was that I could not work with this boss
any more. Whereas in my current organization, they like it to be outspoken. And it is the way
you do it - as long as you do it in a very constructive way, it is evidenced based - the points you
are making, they encourage you to be active. So to sum it up: If you are in a male dominate
organization, men don’t usually like women to be outspoken. My experience was that my boss
felt that I was criticizing him. So he did not like it because he took it personal although it was
not personal, it was aimed at issues in the whole organization. It was national government, it
was lot with coming from policies, but he took it quite personal because he could not deal with
criticism, he just would interpret any comments of being outspoken as directed towards him but
they were not.
Interviewer: Ok, thank you. Actually moving on to which extent does appearance or beauty matter in your industry? And what kind of problems does attractiveness create at the workplace?
Interviewee: Oh, I have to think about this one. Right, I would not say it creates a problem at the current workplace. There are a lot of women of all different kinds. But in my previous
organization it did, because we worked very much with the commercial sector, which is very,
very male dominated - they would see an attractive women as not very competent. And I have
a number of incidents where men were surprised that I have a position of authority and that I
was capable of doing what I did.
